Hi, Caroline. How are you?

 

I am well, thanks. How are you doing?

 

I'm very well! I wanted to first congratulate you on winning Inspirational Leader of the Year at the RTPI Awards. How did that feel? And secondly, what part of your work at Be First do you attribute that to?

 

Well, first of all, thanks for the congratulations. Obviously, I was delighted. I wasn't expecting to win. And it's quite funny because I went on a table with old colleagues predominantly from JLL. They were teasing me – at the time I was on crutches because I had torn my calf. And they were teasing me, saying “what are you going to do when you go up on stage?” And I said, well, I'm not going to win, so it is fine. And then my name was announced! And I was like: Oh, great!

 

(laughs)

 

(laughs) I'm delighted. It's obviously great to be individually recognized. But it goes without saying that there's been a lot of hard work, not just from me, but from my colleagues and team in order to get to where we are. I'm always very conscious that it talks about it as planning. But actually, you know, I look after the place and design team. It's multidisciplinary, and there's a lot to it. And I think that speaks to our success, in that we've got statutory services, which includes the likes of planning, policy, DM, etc, but also building control, land charges. And then we've got consultancy teams that have grown since I joined Be First. Particularly in planning consultancy, but also design. So I think that kind of straddling of tasks that are typically split between the private and the public sector maxes the remit of Be First and our approach. But also, I think it's been beneficial for those who work in the team in that we will try and have this all-rounded view as to what goes into planning, and planning being only part of the picture for regeneration and development.

 

Now, Be First, I read, is the largest local authority social housing developer. How tough has that been during the current climate for you guys?

 

Yes, obviously, it's a difficult time. We're having to grapple with that, and what it means. In my role as deputy managing director; I'm responsible for help leading on the evolution of the company. We've gone from a time where councils were obviously able to borrow cheap debt – that seems to have fallen away, at least for the time being, and I don't expect it will come back anytime soon. But it means that we're having to – I don't like this word – but pivot to a new strategy of how we finance development, now and into the future. Now, obviously, macroeconomics have accelerated that. But I think we would have been having this conversation and transformation really in approach, regardless, just because of the sheer scale of regeneration opportunity. The council to date has taken a very interventionist approach. But even with the best will in the world and the best, wider drivers that you could hope for, it is too big for the council to do it by itself. We're looking diversifying our income by working with institutional finance. We all know there is a lot of money there. But that doesn't come without its own challenges in terms of de-risking investment opportunities, and straddling that. I guess, it's straddling concerns about what that means for income, etc. Our role is showing that we can do that, and we can deliver on that.

 

How important for Be First is innovation, do you think, in addressing the housing crisis – innovation in building technology as well as in terms of funding structures? 

 

Well, I think innovation is critical. That's a very easy answer to give. But this has always been our approach: what are we trying to deliver? Ultimately, what are the outcomes? And then how do we get there? And with different inputs, if you like, or if those inputs are changing, then we have to look at how our approach changes. To try and give an example that's tangible, our focus very much for the council portfolio – the political drive there – has been on affordable housing. We've delivered, I think, around 3500 homes, and the vast majority of those are affordable. That speaks to values in the borough and what works with grants, etc as well as political aspiration. But with changing inputs in terms of where finance comes from and also, I think, the deepening of the housing crisis we've been talking about, what does this mean? The way we've been framing it is asking what it means for working Londoners. How does that link into things like the build-to-rent sector? The conditions and the support for build-to-rent in Barking and Dagenham are very strong. But there is a slight difference in terms of your standard, or traditional, affordable housing. And that's a political journey, I think, probably to go on in terms of getting to that point. It's just a change. To go back to your question on the innovation side of things, you haven't got one solution, and that's it for the rest of time. It's got to be: well, where are we trying to get to? And if conditions change, what are our growth areas and what can we tap into in order to deliver on that, if that makes sense?

 

It does. I was looking broadly at the perilous state of quite a lot of local authorities across the country in terms of going bankrupt and I read this morning that there's been five that have gone bankrupt since 2021. And according to a Guardian report, I read one in five say they'll be insolvent by next year. How does this affect you guys, this fairly perilous situation? Even Barking and Dagenham has got quite a big deficit, I read, too.

 

Yeah. Barking & Dagenham does appear in the media in terms of its debt profile. And obviously, given the socio-economic characteristics of the borough, they have an enormous and growing demand for adult and children's social care. They're grappling with those issues, like councils everywhere. But for us as their regeneration delivery agency, it really stresses that need. The council is not in the same position that it was in two years ago, let alone five years ago, in being able to borrow money from the public works loan board. What they've done, though, is they have invested, not just in land, but in an agency where they've got a skillset and a reputation and a track record for delivering at pace. We've got numerous awards for the quality of our development, as well as the teams. So how do we use that in order to bridge that financial gap? Which is why it's so critical for Be First at the moment to pivot from relying on council borrowing to other kinds of institutional investment, and what that means for public-private partnership, in order to continue that regeneration story. Bearing in mind we all know regeneration is a long-term commitment. And with the socio-economics of the borough - there are still challenges there, there are still issues there. So, it's how we adapt to circumstances in order to continue delivering on value for our shareholder, which is the council.

 

How do you personally view the housing situation of the rest of the city, in broad terms? And as a subset question to that, do you have an optimistic stance given various electoral changes, either nationally or locally, as in London, with the mayor this year? Is there a sense of optimism in the air, do you think? 

 

Yeah (laughs). I think there has to be a sense of optimism in the air and a sense of hope, or otherwise, it's quite discouraging, really, isn't it? (laughs) We're all realistic, I think, in the sector. I was at the NLA, New London agenda launch, and again, it was very apparent that change is needed. We're at this point where it's all very doom and gloom, but we can't stay in that doom and gloom. So, what are we going to do about it? And just to go to the first part of your question on housing, the housing crisis, and the affordability crisis has only worsened.

 

Over what period, would you say? Over the last year?

 

Well, yes, we all see that rents have increased, the cost of living crisis, etc. And the impacts of that are nuanced, depending on individuals, but I think it would be very difficult to say housing has improved. When we talk about it in terms of Barking and Dagenham, and this the sort of London-wide issue – it's pushing people out and pushing them further out of London. That has obviously got implications for jobs. And I don't think we've seen the full effects of that yet. Unless and until we start collectively doing something about that, then I think that's probably only going to get worse. You know, the travel distance to work, but also the service sectors, etc. that prop up some of the very lucrative careers that you can get in the city. 

What we’re trying to do at Barking and Dagenham, one of our areas is called Thames Road which is a new neighbourhood; once it's finished there'll be around 3500 new homes, but alongside a lot of industrial floorspace as well. Part of it at the moment is strategic industrial land, but our local plan, which is imminent to be adopted, will remove some of that strategic industrial land with a view to intensifying some industrial uses in some parts of it and then freeing up land for residential. And the reason I mention that is Barking and Dagenham, in London terms, is very affordable. Notwithstanding the fact that values are increasing very rapidly, admittedly from a low base, but they compare to other parts of London, in very positive growth. But if we can deliver a neighbourhood that actually you can go and work in and make your money, whilst you can also live there, then that is a way of tackling some of the housing crisis issues, and the impact that we're seeing on younger generations again, which I don't think is necessarily drawn out as strongly as it should be, as yet.

 

Now then, you mentioned right at the start of this conversation that you had torn your calf and that presumably led to you hobbling up onto the stage to collect your award. And I'm again making the presumption that you tore your calf in some running or cycling or perhaps swimming incident as part of the triathlon side of your life and career. Is that the case? And if so, how's that all going?

 

Well, you would think that maybe I'd done it in some sporting activity. But embarrassingly, I tore my calf walking up the hill of the street that I live on! 

 

Oh!

 

(laughs) Yeah, not good. I'm actually not doing so much triathlon these days. I bought a gravel bike, and I am full-on addicted to it. I love it. It's like a whole new world. And I enjoy very much the cycling routes where you're not worried about cars; you're more worried about dogs. Yeah, very much enjoying that. I took quite a break from the triathlon side of things. But I'm still running and swimming and cycling – I'm just not putting it together, I guess. And my calf is much improved now!

 

Excellent! Well, thank you very much for talking to me. And congratulations again on the award. Well-deserved, and I hope I speak to you soon. 

 

Oh, thank you! Bye.