DT: …So do you hold with the notion then that there will be a new generation of ‘third spaces’, as it were? Places that aren't quite in the centre, but are places where people can escape the home? Remind me of your quip about the person who said they wanted to go back to the office for the sake of their health…
ZS: Oh yes! I happened for a personal reason to call a government department the other day and I just had the feeling that the guy answered by referencing material in the office. So I said: ‘are you actually in a physical office?’, and he said ‘yes, I have been since last week. I had to be working here for mental health reasons! I just cannot stand working at home anymore!’
DT: (laughs)
ZS: And you know that chimes with me absolutely, because in the teens I did this big study which I called Why place still matters in the digital age – the report is still downloadable from our website – and it is definitive. It was based on a massive online sample but also close to 90 face-to-face interviews in the UK, Paris, New York, Hong Kong and Mumbai. The driver of the pitch was: what was going on around the periphery of big conurbations where you have the kind of extreme commuting factor that we've all known in London. I knew that places already existed like workplace hubs in Watford, Chelmsford, whatever, as well as in places like London Bridge. And so we did all of these interviews and we found that people really wanted to be close to home or closer to home, but they couldn't work at home; they needed to get over the psychological barrier of moving from pyjamas to a kind of work mindset.
That was very, very clear, even then. And that applies as well to people choosing the kind of space they want to go to. Since then, we've had this massive efflorescence, an explosion of spaces where people can work on a paid-for or free basis. I think the interesting thing will be what happens to the municipal spaces that have been freely offered, like the Royal Festival Hall, the Barbican etc, as these institutions are going to be facing such short-term financial hurdles. There’s a question: are they going to try to monetise that civic benefit? I have felt so proud to live in a city where it's been so wonderfully bestowed. The British Library were absolute pioneers in saying: come and use this as workspace.
DT: Maybe they will charge for Wi-Fi access; maybe that's the way they'll do it.
ZS: Well, interestingly, I think that Wi-Fi access is just going to very quickly become a ubiquitous freebie
DT: Yeah
ZS: Because I think that the inequality surrounding broadband access for poorer families during COVID has had such a pronounced impact, and I think something has to be done about it. It's been quite publicised in the press, so I think that cities that have wanted to get ahead have offered free broadband for a long time. The marginal cost of the city doing it I think is so small for the benefit
DT: So: last question, because we’re just about out of time, but it's a hard one, this. Do you have a timeline prediction for the city going forward in terms of office occupation and general life? What are your thoughts about the next year? Have you got a tentative notional timeline in your mind?
ZS: I do. I think that there are people who are raring to get back, and as we saw in that interval between the first lockdown and the Tier 3 for London, it became very buzzy, very quickly. I think there will be a period where musical chairs are taking place and where, very heartbreakingly, some businesses will not be able to resuscitate, particularly in the service economy; you know, the sandwich shops and the dry cleaners, and many of them family-owned businesses.
But there will be other entrants and the exciting reality about times of disruption is that there are always opportunities for other entrants. It’s winners and losers, and my heart goes out to all the people who going to be losers. I think if it hits you at a certain stage in your business or personal life cycle, you'll probably never come back – but there are all of these people who are percolating ideas and enthusiasm and energy, and they will populate these spaces. So I feel that there will be a change of faces and there will be some retention of faces. I think we will get a new mix, but I think that, once we're allowed to re-populate our city, I would say that in a year to 18 months, we will have a thriving situation.
DT: Good! That's a really optimistic note to end on - and I hope you're right!
ZS: I hope I’m right too! I mean, I walked around St Pancras station one day this week and it broke my heart. Apart from it being like a ghost town, there were clear signs of evident permanent closures. But, you know, occupancy costs have been very high, and if it creates entry opportunities for other participants, that's very exciting.
We just have to move forward – and it's really interesting how the sentiment can change quite fast. I think it's interesting how the sentiment towards the UK and government has changed over the weekend, because of the vaccine ‘’tennis match’. We all have a role, and actually I think this is a really good note to end on. I think we all have a role in leading market sentiment positively, because it does make a difference. You can give people the courage to participate and the enthusiasm to participate or when they are feeling doubtful you can reinforce it. And it’s just not my way. I think there is a lot of rosy prospect, and I hope that collectively we can all help shape it.
DT: Lovely! thanks Ziona. it's great to speak to you again, and I'll speak to you soon cheers
ZS: Okay, cheers David. Bye!