David Taylor
You mentioned just now that you didn't go there in terms of air. Did you mean let's not go there in this conversation? Or did you just avoid the subject completely in terms of, say drone delivery of items? Because that's coming, isn't it? Or at least the debate is coming?
Tom Alexander
I think it's proven in places like the Isle of Shetland where it gets some goods delivered and certainly, blood deliveries are being talked about like that. I think there's an essential that could use that very readily. I think it's just not been worked out yet. It is a three-dimensional movement issue for the city. If you've got a lot of drones flying around, we've already got some helicopters and then above those some aeroplanes. And if you add drones to that, there are many issues. So it just needs working out. I think most of the logistics people I've spoken to see it as not imminent in an urban situation. But it's possible. The technology is there. I think it's how it integrates with the wider network, again, which suddenly becomes three-dimensional. It's not just on the ground. It's not science fiction; it can do it. Maybe it happens in pockets. I think certainly everybody's thinking about it.
David Taylor
Yeah, because there was a company - I forget who - which was formed to go about buying some rooftop space specifically for this purpose; to be mini-drone airports, as it were, or landing points. Is that fiction? Did I imagine that or is that happening?
Tom Alexander
I don't personally know that company. But certainly, we're designing things which are slightly to the edge of central London, where there's a bit more space, things are lower around it, there aren't tall buildings. And you can well imagine a rooftop operation happening and serving a whole residential community. So perhaps something comes in off the river, unloads into a large building where it's broken down into packages, and then there's a fleet of drones, which at certain times of day or night could be operated and delivered to a borough or a neighbourhood. I think that makes sense. It's not for me because I don't run those businesses to logistically know how that would work, exactly. But I think you're right. I think it can happen. There are obviously tensions when you think a little bit about privacy; cameras and stuff like that. A little bit about, I guess there's some kind of potential risk to that as well, just operationally. Who knows what else they could carry, etc. But I understand they're very successful in delivering things behind enforcement centres in prisons.
David Taylor
Yes! (laughs)
Tom Alexander
I mean, people, innovation, entrepreneurialism, it's a technology that people see with potential, and somebody will come up with some ways of making it work. So yes, that's all good, you know, as long as you can say, that's all good, and possible. So I think you're right. Your example is I'm sure out there.
David Taylor
Now there's a widely reported statistic about the loss of London's industrial, which I think is from 2001 to 2020 of about 1500 hectares. How are we doing on this? Are we turning the tide a little would you say? What's the state of play?
Tom Alexander
Yeah, no, I mean, that's a huge number isn't it,1500 hectares? I think it was Segro in their keep London Working report that highlighted it to most of London for the first time, which was great. And it was just there were lots of basically industrial building sheds that were being turned over to other uses, primarily residential. That highlighted, in turn, the need for homes that we need to provide as well. So I think, again, we certainly, at Aukett Swanke have been looking at well over 50, maybe 60 sites now across London, where you can say we can retain the industrial use, and add other uses. The debates around that colocation have been very exciting, and also testing - rightly so. And I think that helps people realize that you can retain the employment use; that it's not all, you know, really polluting or dirty or noisy. They're very sophisticated operations more often than not inside. So that realisation – and it's been a perception thing – has been a journey we've been on. I think that will help turn that tide. I can't say whether it's actually happened fully yet, but it's definitely changing. And policies, you know, the protected areas, strategic industrial land, locally significant industrial land, those two categories, which are now in every borough and are governed, or overseen by the GLA is great, and it's important and the employment spaces, people are realizing that. I think within the nuances of colocation, you just have to get that right. It's a kind of no-compromise approach that's required on retaining industrial employment type use, but also, certainly not compromising on any other use; you add to that. That really isn't just residential. Although that's the key one we're doing that ourselves. But also, we're doing things like industrial sites, where we're re-providing the light industrial uses and adding things like life sciences facilities above or around them.
For us, it's just got much more sophisticated, where we have a smarter way of doing it, if you like, than putting things on top, which the press picked up on with the phrase ‘beds on sheds’. It's not that simple. And it's not that straightforward. It's cleverer now, and we feel like we've got that going. So, all of these things are contributing towards the retention of some of that land. Within that, the actual use type is a very hot topic. So B8, B2 and E class have been the primary types. B8 - industrial and logistics, B2 - general manufacturing and E class which can be a lot of things now office to light industrial. So there was a tendency to replace some of those spaces with E class. And then the debate was: well do you actually need it has anyone actually wanting it? But that was much easier, more palatable. The famous phrase: it's all candlestick makers. But B8 there's a huge demand for, especially during COVID and following it. So how do you get B8 more frequently into London areas? It's a bit bigger. There are more vehicle movements. And it's not quite the crafty kind of thing. But it is sophisticated; it uses very high technologies. It's probably more noisy than making candles but it's certainly not a big polluting industrial environments like a Lowry painting which is the example, I always use. So all of that protection and retention of industrial land across London is a hot topic. It's being addressed. And so I can't tell you whether the tide has actually turned, but I think it will because we need it.
David Taylor
And what of multi-level? Is it again, also a case of simply needing pioneer schemes in the capital to convince people and change perceptions?
Tom Alexander
Yes, I think so. Again, if you look at places like Japan and Asia, they've been doing multilevel for a long time. Again, the debate around that focuses on ramps or lifts and the strength of the floor on the upper level. So therefore, what you can actually do on a ground floor industrial building logistics is incredibly strong. The upper floors tend to be about a third of that strength, maybe less. And you just need to make sure you're providing the facility for the demand. So multi-level can definitely work and there are examples of that going on. There's the V Park, which is a Segro project, which uses a lift; there is Industria which is over in Barking and Dagenham, which uses a ramp; there are further options, or examples that have been developed by some of the big companies, logistics firms, some of which I can't say too much about, but I think they know who they are! And they're looking at either lifts or ramps. There are strong opinions about which will work. At Aukett Swanke, we've developed an approach which uses a ramp and lifts. It's part of our 100-year chassis design ideas that we've had now for quite a long time, where any building you design should really be for the future. You should be able to change its use quite easily. So a 100-year chassis could be in a logistics light industrial building now. But in the future, it can transform into other things.
That is hugely sustainable, and we think viable. We've done a few schemes, which are about four or five storeys, and we ramp up to the first floor and then take lifts above it. And we have a view on materials for that as well. So some materials are going to be far longer lasting than others, which means your carbon footprint analysis when they are first built might seem higher. But if they're going to be around 100 years, and frankly longer than that, then they have a sustainable narrative, which means they can change their uses for something quite different. And that's a big area for us at the moment that we're really pushing on. Can't say too much about that, actually. But it's a project we're working on, which is looking way beyond the 100 years. And that's fascinating. But I think the industrial intensification, multi-level is coming, more and more. People want to see it working; you can look overseas and see it working. It's just accepting it here.
David Taylor
So the NLA produced, as you know, the industrial and logistics report, Can London Deliver? And I was wondering in a pat way, what is the answer to that question from your standpoint?
Tom Alexander
Absolutely. It's a complex organism, the city, as I've mentioned previously, and it's how you integrate with that. So London can deliver. And it's got to deliver on more than just that. It's got to deliver on lots of things. It's a hugely exciting international city that seems to have got stronger and stronger in the last 20 years. Internationally favoured for lots of different reasons. So we've got to make it work, or you'll end up with too much movement, too much stuff that doesn't quite fit with the perception of what it is to live in a city i.e. there's an industrial building over here. But is that a good thing or a bad thing? We can make it a good thing. And I bring that into the environment and the opportunity for a large roof for an industrial space, for example, to be a great space, both for the well-being of the people below, with skylights, but also biodiversity with green roofs, with photovoltaics and energy production or passive energy production. They have a very strong stable floor which is great for thermal mass and can be hugely agile for future use. So within that, London can make it work. It always feels like you're having to re-say this to everybody, in a way, but not to the expert panel! They get it. But I think that industrial buildings are very exciting and can be very friendly. And if you do the phrase which Southwark introduced called Windows on Work, you give some views into those operations. They can be integrated. People say: “Oh, I see what's going on in there. That's really good.” The people who work in them look out and say I'm still part of the community. This is important. And then they can be integrated. So London can be made to work with it, and it has to be. You don't want it to be like an add-on industrial logistics, distribution an add-on to the city. It's got to be really skilfully integrated. I think it is in places and it's beginning to happen. But it does feel like one for the next 20 years. We've just got to start to build the strategies and acknowledge all of these issues now, and build the strategy.
So that's why, frankly, I come back to the big map of London and the pens and the group of people sitting around, pointing and saying: this could work, that could work. And then taking that out, again, for wider dialogue. Stakeholder engagement is key, and exciting. And I think that's, again, through the structure of the NLA expert panels. You've then got other people to go and chat to and say, well, we're looking at this, what do you think about this in terms of housing or healthcare? How does that integrate with that?
I'm a very optimistic person, I think. So I kind of get enthusiastic about these things when I see something either working or not working. And I try to think innovatively about it. I feel the experts, the specialists, the knowledge, the intellectual debate – and then the actions – really can make it work. Yes, absolutely.
David Taylor
Well, that's a great way to end this conversation. And thank you very much on behalf of NLA, as well, for your work in this field and on the panel.
Tom Alexander
Thank you, David. It's always a pleasure.