Hello, Bruce, and congratulations on your period as chair of this panel of transport and infrastructure. Firstly, I'd like to know what was uppermost when you cast your mind back over that period? What would you say were the three key takeaways you have from that period for this sector? 

 

It's been an interesting three years, in lots of ways. And I think for me, the takeaways are some of the things that aren't new topics, but are recurring themes, but which have perhaps come to the fore a bit more with some of the stuff that's happened over that period. So, I think particularly there was a lot of commentary and discussion on the panel around the need for high quality spaces - streets and public spaces - and the importance of those, particularly creating streets that are great places for people to walk in and spend time on, as well. I think we got into those discussions, which are obviously not new ideas, partly off the back of the quite rapid changes that have been delivered during the COVID responses, from various authorities, including the City. And I guess the often quite temporary nature of those. There was a lot of concern – which has not necessarily been borne out as we now transition to the permanent phase – that we will be left with a lot of quite ugly schemes, to be honest, or certainly functional is perhaps the better term for it, you know, with materials and everything else left on the street.

But I think, as I said, I think we're in that transition away from that. It's also interesting, just reflecting on some of the other things that have happened in that time and become much more prominent. So again, dockless cycles weren't new, but it's been interesting looking and thinking and reflecting on the impacts of those. And I guess, especially the fact that the benefits from those new forms of transport aren't necessarily equally shared across London. So, you know, there's a lot of them in central London, and inner London, which brings its own challenges. But Outer London's not really benefited, necessarily, from this new form of transport, which essentially appeals to a wider range of people for it as well. I guess that played into the wider discussions we had - I'm sure we'll come on to the focus on Outer London, or for the kind of future transport policy for it. And then I guess what was also interesting as well, connected to that, was just how much scope there is for further change in central London, given how much has happened in recent years. I mean, there's a lot more still to be done, and I think people recognize that, but certainly this feeling that there is a need to start thinking and focusing beyond central London in terms of policy and investment.

 

To what degree was the motor car a central point of discussion, i.e., trying to remove as many private cars as possible from the central zone, and maybe moving on to the outer zone afterwards? To what degree did that dominate discussion? 

 

Yeah, I don't think it really dominated discussion – I think there's a recognition on the panel, and more generally, about the need to reduce the number of motor vehicles on our streets. Because that's an enabler for so much of the other things that we want to achieve, as I said, particularly around giving more space to people walking, enabling more people to cycle, speeding up bus journey times; all those things that are really important and are enabled by reducing traffic. Again, some of that, that's the kind of central London bit. There was a bit of discussion about the extent to which the traffic that's in central London may well be just like a level of traffic that you're going to have now, because there's been a lot of moves and things, so people probably aren't necessarily always driving in, because they choose to. They have to. Personally, I think there's still significant scope for traffic reduction in central London, and it's something we're looking at, in the City. And then the other side of it, of course, is, as you've talked about cars, and I think there was a lot of discussion and recognition that there's different types of traffic, and some of it is definitely essential – freight and servicing – some people need to use private cars or taxis and private hire vehicles to get to where they need to get to everything. So, you'll never get to this point where there'll be no traffic, but definitely a kind of desire to see less traffic on our streets.

In Outer London, I think the way that we've pitched it in the White Paper that we produced at the end of this latest round, it's recognizing that Outer London is different. You don't have the same levels of public transport accessibility, as I mentioned; you don't necessarily have access to all of the different modes that are available in central and inner London, particularly around cycle hire, whether that's dockless or Santander. And it's set up differently. It's structured differently. It's a different place; things are more spread out. It's more suburban, I guess. So, it's a recognition that the car is probably going to always have a role to play there, at least for some people. But crucially, what we're saying is that you need that focus on improving public transport, walking, cycling, etc., in Outer London so that people aren't dependent on a car to enjoy a good quality of life. So yes, there will be cars; yes, some people will continue to use them. But lots of people already live in Outer London without a car. And some people live there who use a car, but would like to use it less, or not use it at all. So, the crucial bit is to get that investment right so it becomes much more of a choice, I guess. And people don't feel that they have to use it to be able to do whatever they need to do on a day-to-day basis. To get around, see friends, get access to services and shops and things that they need to; you know, all of those things they should be able to do without being reliant on a private car.

 

Just while we're on the subject of Outer London, I wondered whether the panel had any views at all about ULEZ and how that's going to impact the city? Do you have any views? These can be personal views, or they can be the views of the panel. And if so, what was discussed?

 

Yeah, I have to admit we didn't get into ULEZ in a great level of detail in any of our discussions. But I will say that think generally the panel recognizes that motor traffic does make a significant impact or contribution to air pollution in London. And so, you understand that kind of policy shift for it. And I guess, generally, without wishing to speak for everyone on the panel, but I'd imagine that, as a panel, we would probably be supportive of those kinds of moves. And over that time period, the last three years, you have started to see the big impact and quite significant impact that ULEZ has had on central London. So, it'll be interesting, I guess, to see how that plays out in Outer London as well.

I guess this perhaps slightly comes back to one of the other things that's in the White Paper, which is linked to that traffic reduction point as well, but is around the need to explore next generation road user charging. Thinking beyond the current congestion charge and ULEZ, and trying to come up with a smarter approach to that; recognizing that, obviously, it's hugely politically challenging, but would potentially allow you to bring all these different charges that have sprung up over time into a single place, and make them a lot smarter; related to how far people are travelling, what times of day they're travelling, even whether there's air quality issues at that particular moment in time, and those kinds of things. So: not a lot of discussion on [ULEZ] in terms of, you know, the pros and cons. But I guess a broad acceptance of that need to encourage the switch to cleaner vehicles, alongside looking to reduce the absolute number of vehicles on the streets as well.

 

Do you think in any way that the pandemic – the COVID period – was a useful force for some of the principles that we espouse about streets?

 

I think, yes, people's response to it was that it probably helped accelerate some change that might have taken longer to happen, but was planned. I think it got people thinking differently about how streets might be used, and again, thinking about that use of temporary or interim measures to deliver some of the benefits of schemes whilst you develop and implement the full permanent changes. But I think a lot of things – I guess perhaps Low Traffic Neighborhoods, LTNs, is one example of this. I don't think you're necessarily seeing lots of new things suddenly appearing. It was more that things that have been in transport strategies in policy for a while were perhaps accelerated as a result of it, in recognition that these things would help and support recovery for it, not that they were just done for their own sake for it. It was all connected to that; supporting recovery and everything else. So, yeah, I think it's been a bit of a driver for probably the pace of change rather than the nature of change, per say.

If I speak from a City perspective here on it, I think the other thing that we've seen is a relatively significant reduction in motor vehicles over that time, and that corresponds with what's happened in the past as well. So, for example, when there's been a global recession, we've seen a big, significant drop in motor vehicles, and then you don't see those numbers creep back up very much as the City recovers. And that is probably where the longer-term opportunity, certainly for central London is, I think. It is that you'll probably see a sustained 10-15% reduction in traffic, which, as mentioned earlier, then potentially enables a lot of the other positive change that we're looking to deliver.

 

One other thing that happened during your reign, as it were, was the Elizabeth Line opening. I wondered what you felt were the impacts of that thus far?

 

I think it's certainly helped encourage people back onto public transport (laughs) and reminded people... I mean, leaving aside some of the recent issues and challenges they've had, that it's a good reminder to people of how good London's public transport network is, and how we have benefited from significant investment, not just in the Elizabeth line, but elsewhere across the Underground network, over the last couple of decades. And that we do actually have a really good, high quality public transport network here. I think it's something we often take for granted as Londoners, but sometimes you travel to other cities and realize that what we have got is very good!

And I think it has supported that recovery of Central London by enabling more people to have ready and easy access to central London. And yes, I think it's doing what it was expected to do in terms of widening the catchment of people who are within a quicker journey time to Central London. It's undoubtedly helped a bit still, even with numbers a bit down on the Underground network, and address some of those capacity issues, all of which, helps, again, encourage people back on to public transport and back into central London and elsewhere, using those modes.

 

So, final question: using your crystal ball, which has a forward shelf-life of, let's say, a year to five years, perhaps in the capital, what do you project that we might see as a main change on our streets, or certainly in the transport and infrastructure sector?

 

I think there's a couple of things there. One, over that time period, perhaps in the next two to three years, I think we'll see us really getting to grips with the dockless cycles and the e-scooters side of things and having a much more coordinated approach to that, which will help maximize the benefits whilst addressing some of the issues we've got, in particular bikes left outside of designated parking areas and blocking pavements and things.

 

Can I interrupt there? What can we do there on e-scooters, for example, because they're illegal and you see them everywhere?

 

Yeah, sorry. I was talking about hired e-scooters. 

 

Ah - got you.

 

I suspect you... well, you will hopefully see legislation dealing with that question of private e-scooters, either reaffirming the fact that they're not currently legal for use on the highway or I suspect, recognizing that they potentially have a role to play in transport. But crucially, with that legislation bringing in the kind of minimum standards that we need to see in terms of maximum speeds, minimum wheel sizes, you know, design quality and those kinds of things.

So, I think that that will be one big change. And I think you're going to see continued investment in Healthy Streets, good quality streets and public spaces, not just in central London but elsewhere, and continued expansion of the cycle network, as well. And continued growth in cycling, I think, which is beginning to appeal to more and more people. I suspect we won't see anything around smarter road user charging in that time period, other than work being done to try and figure out what it might be, which is important in itself. So, I guess, to me, it's probably a continuation of the trends that we've seen. And potentially, again, starting to move with things at a slightly quicker pace than we perhaps did in the past, learning some of those lessons from the measures that were brought in during the pandemic. 

 

Excellent!  That's really great. Thank you very much, Bruce. And thanks for your time as chair of the panel!

 

Okay. No problem. Thanks, David.