David Taylor: Hi Leanne. How are you?

Leanne Tritton: I'm well, thank you.

DT: I was interested in first of all looking back over your recent history and how you've got involved with Corona, because it interested me that you were trying to get involved in the procuring of PPE and test kits, and something called Project Little Boat. Do you want to just talk about that for a second?

LT: Sure. It comes down to one of the theories I have about what we do. On the sign above our door it says PR and Comms, and essentially we are problem solvers. Project Little Boat came about because we have been working with the West Midlands combined authority and with a guy called Nick Markham who has a not for profit company called Any Nest which is looking at a shared ownership housebuilding model. Anyway, the day after lockdown, we were on a call and he said could you stay on the call after this because I want to tell you about another project I need some advice on. After that call he started telling me about how he had a contact in South Korea who was really staggered, frankly, by the fact that people from governments all over the world were queuing up to buy testing kits from the South Koreans. And that's when he said: ‘we're trying to get these kits into the UK and we might need some help in some of the comms on that.’ And of course, as you probably know, ING gives a huge amount of our time pro bonofor many, many charities and this was obviously incredibly close to all of our hearts. So I said: ‘yeah, absolutely’. However, then it became much more than just about comms. That weekend we spent all weekend trying to find a refrigerated truck to get these test kits in the right environment up to Oxford, and then we had to find out how we could get the chief person at DHL so we could make sure they were fast-tracked through Heathrow. So it's that kind of bonkers programme which has been fascinating and again gives you more depth into how government works and how our procurement processes work. And how they fail is not only in the built environment. You know, you see people all the time complaining about procurement processes for architects or construction companies all those - sorts of things through government departments and PPE and test kits are no different…. Literally, you fill out a form saying: ‘I can sell you rubber gloves’, and the procurement department comes back and says: ‘you’ve scored low on innovation!’. It’s the type of thing that happens.

DT: So, it gave you a real grounding in the stuff that you've essentially been talking about, broadly, in procurement?

LT: Oh yeah, absolutely.

DT:  And what did it tell you? Were you depressed by what you found?

LT: Hugely, unfortunately. And you know me, I’m not a depressive kind of person. But it has been a great tragedy and I really tried not to enter on social media into the slagging-off-government-and-individuals argument. But I really hope that after this is over that we have a proper inquiry into how procurement has worked within the NHS and within our public services to help us out of an issue like this.

DT: Is it a bureaucratic logjam?

LT: I believe so, yeah. It's like lots of lots of things – you know, like the Grenfell disaster; there's no one villain that you can point the finger at. It is a systematic failure. And you know the thing is, as human beings, we love bureaucracy. Every time something happens, we love to add a new rule, don't we? Get four people in a room and decide to come up with a solution and you have to add a couple of rules in. And that's basically procurement on a massive scale. It's just rules that are often brought in for very good reasons – the sentiment is good, but they make things unmanageable.

DT: Has it led to you thinking about the way you run your own business and perhaps reversing a few steps that you might have introduced as a company – or something that you recommend to your clients, for example?

LT: Yes, absolutely. I see it all the time because we've gone from an organisation of one person to 40 and each step along the way you have to introduce more and more rules for the regulations. And one of the biggest issues for me not so much on the Little Boat stuff but just working from home is that when I started running a business if you spoke to an employment lawyer, they always made you feel very nervous about delving into anybody's private life. You were not allowed to ask questions. You were doing a job interview but you can't ask too much because you're overstepping the boundaries. And then suddenly I was having to find out from all of my team l what their individual circumstances were, how they were going to work from home, what their problems were, their fears and everything else. And of course, it's made me much closer to them. I was closer anyway but you realise that you have these people who walk into your work ‘family’ every day and you have no idea what has influenced them or affected them before they step through that front door. I think that's a real missed opportunity. Now, obviously there are some people who would use that information in a bad way. But I think for most people who run a business, you want to know about your people so you can make their lives better and get a better outcome. 

DT: So, it is almost a humanising force that we've had glimpses into people's houses and work environments?

LT: Yes, exactly. And on the other side, just in terms of COVID we have a risk assessment obviously for working in the office. But I spent all weekend trying to figure out how we could make it the perfect office, and it can't be done, actually. I just said to my team: it's up to you. Come in or don't come in, but everyone has a different sense of risk. We can do everything we can possible to make this a safe environment but we can't make it perfect. So, it was just that light bulb moment when I thought: we are all big people; they have been working from home and working very successfully and also going up to the shops and doing their shopping and taking the kids for a walk and everything. So the idea that suddenly they walk in tomorrow to the ING office and they have lost all their ability to manoeuvre themselves within 2m…  Trust your people. They know what’s best for them.

DT: It's interesting, though, isn't it, because if you listen to Boris Johnson yesterday evening he said that people who couldgo in would be ‘actively encouraged’ and it made me worry for people who might be concerned that if they didn't show their face that they would be somehow penalised.  Are you conscious of that with your own business or do you think that's an issue for other firms?

LT: Well there's two things here. I think first of all I'm completely conscious of that and we've been at absolute pains to say it is seriously your own choice and do not worry about it. Now if someone is still at home in their bedroom in two years’ time, we might have got some questions. But yeah, for the perceivable future, absolutely. But I think that you raise a really interesting point and it's one that I think of all the time in terms of how people are talking about the long term, working from home all the time. I'll be interested to see how that works, because growing up as a working class woman or girl, when I started work the one thing that helped me improve and grow in my career was access to other networks. Meeting people ,or getting someone to recommend me, or giving me an opportunity. And women in particular have worked very, very hard to get involved in male-dominated industries where the networking was very male. And I think it'll be interesting to see if that won't matter anymore. If being parted for the social groups won't matter. I suspect it will matter, as it always has. 

DT: I notice that an organisation you have just been put into the PR Week's top three firms for B to B - quite an accolade. Given that, what is your appraisal of government communications in the last week, for example? The ‘stay alert’ thing - how would you evaluate that as communications to the electorate and beyond?

LT: First of all, very quickly on the PR Week thing, it takes 20 years to be an overnight success…

DT: (laughs)

LT: …but PR or communication has always being looked down on yet every success and failure of life I’ve seen has had something to do with how well people are able to communicate, whether that's in your personal life or in your business life .There are two things that play I think with the government at the moment. They're running a comms strategy based on the old-fashioned election single message that you stick to one message and then you keep repeating it. They've got to forget that. I think their messaging is very confused and the electorate will be won or lost on how they physically manage the virus. PPE, testing, getting the problem fixed. Forget about the PR for a bit and just be more honest and clearer that you haven't got it right and people will forgive you. But spending all that time on that slogan? That is so, so confusing. It has been counterproductive, and I want them to win, I mean regardless of your politics. Because if they win, I win 

DT: When are you going to go back to the office?

LT: I’m in. We have officially re-opened today; we’ve got four people in the office.  We're very fortunate that we've got a big space. We've got no problem with social distancing. I walked in and I'm cycling home and the people who are here cycled in or were driven in. And, you know, the unanimous cheer for home working is not shared by everybody. There are some people who’re in small spaces with small kids or flat mates - I mean Jesus! You meet somebody out of an ad in the paper and find yourself locked in with them for eight weeks…

DT: That's marriage! (laughs) 

LT: (laughs)

DT: Finally, are you optimistic?  What’s your frame of mind? 

LT: Yes, optimistic. The government is not going to have all the answers on this. I've been waiting for that but it's not going to happen. You’ve got to make your own rules and own common sense. We are very fortunate that we are in an office where we don't have a lot of access to other tenants and other communal spaces. We’re in central London so that's good – there are lots of people in worse positions. But you know? There's unfortunately no alternative other than optimism, because otherwise it’s just too depressing