Hi Claudia, hi Emma. How are you? 

Good, thank you. How are you? 

I'm very good, thank you. Can I start by asking you simply how your fairly unusual job share came about? You both applied for the role, I think, but did you apply as a duo, or was it suggested to you by Historic England after the interviewing process? How did it work? 

Well, we applied for the co-CEO role as an established job share, so we were already job sharing together in Historic England in our role as Director of Regions, and we'd both been in job shares before that with other people in other roles in other organisations. So we knew that job-share worked brilliantly for us, and we knew that we could demonstrate that it worked brilliantly for organisations. So, we applied as a package. 

And how does it work in reality? Do you split the week? Do you split roles? How does it work? 

We do everything. I work Monday to Wednesday, Claudia Wednesday to Friday, so we have an overlap day, and we try to be in two places at once, so we only spend typically about an hour together on a Wednesday, but we use that time to talk about strategy or align on the really big issues facing us, and whatever day of the week a particular meeting or decision falls, whoever is in the office that day will deal with it. So, we take lots of notes, we WhatsApp each other quite regularly, but I think we both feel that we're much more resilient, creative, ambitious, accountable together than we would be doing the job on our own. 

How did you establish initially that the chemistry between you was right? Because, presumably, that is an issue, right? You can't do this with someone you don't like? 

Claudia Kenyatta  

For job-share to work, you have to have the support of the organisation, you have to have the buy-in from your teams, and you have to have all the systems and processes that we've put in place to make it work. But chemistry is a really important part of a successful job share. Emma and I have known each other, although we haven't worked directly together for a number of years, and so our current job share started from a coffee a few years ago when we were just talking about our respective careers and our ambitions and what we wanted to do, and it was a great conversation. Out of that came the idea of, hey, well, perhaps there's a job share for us together in the future. Then we had various conversations about exploring that a little bit, and the chemistry felt right, and we decided to take it forward. 

David Taylor  

What was the chief reason for wanting to split your week, in a sense? And what do you do when you're not doing what you do? 

Both of us have young families, but more importantly, it's given us the bandwidth for both of us to take on other non-executive roles, which we think give us lots of purpose, as well as giving us some extra ideas that we bring back to the day job. So, Claudia is chair of Battersea Arts Centre, and I'm the chair of Bridport Museum Trust, which is a really small, lovely museum in West Dorset.

I chair Battersea Arts Centre, and together we're also working as a job share on the Mayor of London's cultural leadership board. 

David Taylor  

Okay, so I don't want to labour this this job-share point any longer, except to ask: presumably in your circumstances it's good for women with younger families? Have you come across this with men, and presumably you're an advocate of this for both genders? 

We're really, really passionate about job sharing as one of the tools in a toolbox of flexible working, and it can work brilliantly for lots of different people at lots of different career stages. We also think that job-shares, where they work well, are hugely beneficial for organisations. You get a more diverse candidate pool for roles; you get a broader range of experience. We always say we are a good job share, but we bring different skills and perspectives, and the organisation really benefits from that. And so, job sharing is certainly something that lots of different people consider, and we've been growing our network of job sharers in this role, and we have found job sharers across lots of different sectors at lots of different career stages. We've certainly seen both men and women in job shares, so the leaders of the Birmingham Museums and Galleries, I think, is a really good example, with Zak Mensah and Sara Wajid have a male and female job share, so there's lots of different models out there. 

Is there an organisation for job sharers or an association that we should be aware of, or that should exist? 

Not that we're aware of, but if there is, we'd love to hear about it! There are lots of great organisations promoting flexible working in lots of different ways. We haven't yet come across one specifically for job shares, but that's not to say they're not out there somewhere. 

Okay, so moving on to the work that you're involved with at the moment. I mentioned a little question of mine just before we hit record about retrofit, and perhaps whether that has created an atmosphere and environment, really, for heritage to be less precarious, let's put it like that, than it has been in recent decades. Is that something that you agree with? 

We are really heartened to see Retrofit First as a theme in the draft National Planning Policy Framework, and more and more local authorities like Westminster embracing retrofit first type policy. We definitely would rather see historic building in use and brought up to spec sensitively for modern requirements than standing empty or demolished, and we want to try and help developers use historic assets to drive value, commercial value, and the outcomes that they want. So, lots of our work has been around retrofitting in its narrowest sense. So, what kind of energy efficiency or renewables work best for historic buildings, and are going to be most sensitive, and trying to provide guidance for custodians and local planning authorities there. But also reusing historic buildings through lots of our 'How To' publications, case studies, engagement at UKREiiF. We launched a heritage investment prospectus at UKREiiF, which is Historic England trying to be the middleman between incredible historic buildings that we think lend themselves to housing or mixed use, and developers who might want to take on those opportunities. So yes, I think the environment is broadly positive, and there is a growing body of developers who see the value of working with the historic environment to develop better schemes. 

That investment prospectus is very interesting. You, as English Heritage, as was, used to have an At-Risk register, I think. So, is it broadly taking on some of those kinds of buildings, which are at risk, but could be developed? Is there some sort of crossover there? 

There is some crossover, and often the buildings that we're highlighting in the prospectus are also buildings that are at risk. The Heritage at Risk Register is really broad, and the heritage investment prospectus is designed to highlight a smaller number of buildings that we think have real potential for reuse, and where the timing is right to go out and promote those buildings, promote the opportunity, start to build networks with developers and others who might be interested in helping to bring them forward. 

The other thing I'd add is that we've got a brilliant team of development advice professionals, experts in Historic England, and we are really keen for developers to engage us early, so that we can de-risk projects for them, and ultimately help save them time and money through engagement before they've gone too far down the track of a planning application. 

David Taylor  

What would you say is the biggest risk to the historic environment over the next five years? Would you say funding, planning reform, climate adaptation, or something else entirely? 

I would possibly take a bit of a step back and say the biggest risk is something that underpins quite a lot of the areas you just mentioned, which is that the potential of heritage to support positive outcomes for people and places isn't recognised. So, we know that heritage is a phenomenally important national asset. It supports growth, it supports new homes, it supports skilled jobs, it supports tourism, it builds high streets and communities and places that people want to live in and invest in and visit. And I think the risk is that people don't fully recognise the potential of the historic environment and sometimes see it as a barrier or a blocker to change, rather than an enabler of positive change. 

Anything to add to that, Emma? 

We have just published a new five year strategy. We wanted to move quite quickly on that as we started as co-CEOs, and at its heart is that heritage matters in its own right for enjoyment, learning, a sense of connection to your place, but also that it can be part of the solution to a whole range of societal challenges. So, Claudia's mentioned housing supply and the housing crisis. We've produced some research that you could get up to 670,000 characterful homes from existing empty buildings. We talked about net zero, and you know, we cannot live within the legally mandated carbon budgets if all of the new homes that the government wants are new builds, but repurposing existing buildings is much lower carbon because of the embodied carbon. We'd like to retrofit the fifth of homes and the third of commercial buildings that are pre-1919 to help contribute to more homes. We think the economy could absorb an extra 80,000 jobs a year in heritage construction to do that retrofit, so we think there's real scope for meaningful jobs for young people. 

So, I guess it's a long answer to your question, but I think we're more glass half full than glass half empty in terms of the biggest risks to heritage. We see lots of opportunities, and those are what we're trying to capture in our new strategy, with its focus on the role of heritage and growth, the role of heritage and place making. 

I was at a conference earlier this week called the Built World Summit, at which the thorny question of VAT on refurbishments was raised again, as it seems to be at most conferences I've been at over the last 20 years or so. Do you see any scope for the VAT rules within government changing? Does that pass across your desk, even as a sort of principle that you would like to push forward? 

Yes, certainly. And I think more generally, we're looking at viability. Why aren't more of those incredible, characterful, historic mills in the North of England, for example, being brought forward as really achingly cool housing developments? There is a viability challenge, and that may be one of the levers that government could choose to use to sort of equalise VAT between new build and refurbishment, but there are a range of others. So, part of Historic England's function is as a strategic advisor to government, and we have a really good analytical and research capability too, and a brilliant emergent relationship with the National Housing Bank and Homes England, and all of this, I think, is in the mix in terms of trying to achieve shared objectives on affordable and more volume of new homes. 

But VAT specifically? Who knows? There are public funding challenges, and we can see why now might not be the moment that the Treasury want to reduce one source of income. So, we would rather focus on areas that we think that will make a difference but are achievable in the current economic climate. 

So, what's next for Historic England? And you both? You've been in post now, I think eight months in your shared role. What have you learned from that period, both in terms of the role and – sorry – the roles! and sharing that role, and also, jobs in hand in terms of the organisation. 

Well, we knew bits of the organisation really well before taking on the co-CEO role, but one of the most exciting things about stepping into the CEO role has been just seeing the full breadth and depth of what Historic England does, and to understand more about some of the amazing people and the amazing skills that sit within the organisation. So, we've had the opportunity to learn about our heritage science expertise and the way that we use that. We've had an opportunity to find out more about the work of our community teams and our public engagement through things like the National Blue Plaque Scheme, so that's been one of the really exciting things about the past eight months. 

I think we are incredibly excited to be leading such a skilled and motivated organisation, and the thinking that we've gone through with our staff and with our stakeholders and with our board to develop our new strategic plan has been so energising and exciting. We're now moving into delivery of that plan, and I think we're just kind of keen to get going and start really delivering change around housing, skills, growth, places in the heritage sector. So, we're feeling quite excited about the future. 

Emma, anything to add there? 

Emma Squire  

Yes, everything that Claudia said, and I was just thinking about what I would want people out there to know about and think about when they think of Historic England and heritage, and I guess the first thing would be how relevant heritage can be to a range of other challenges and opportunities. But also, how open and pragmatic and expert our teams are. So, we invite everybody in, and we would love to talk to people really early and help them achieve better outcomes. So, yes, I think: talk to us early and think about heritage and how it can contribute to solving challenges and seizing opportunities. 

Brilliant. Well, I've just worked out that if you're both working Monday to Wednesday and Wednesday to Friday, they're getting six days out of you, not 'five', so it's win-win all round, isn't it? 

Yes, and I mean one of the benefits of the job share is how flexible we can be, so if there are two really major things happening on a Thursday, I can just shift things around and be there, so we really think it can add value to the organisation. 

Magic. Thanks very much for your time. So, they are really a great role models for others to follow, I think, aren’t they? 

Fantastic! Thank you, David. 

Thanks David, lovely to talk to you. 

No worries. Bye.