Hello Mark; good to meet you.  Perhaps you could give me a short background of Zebra's history. How did it all start? 

 

Mark Mason 

Hi David. I was part of the original team. I wasn't the founder - June Robson was the founder of Zebra; she was the design and development director of the Burton group. Zebra was established in January 1998, so we have just celebrated our 27th birthday. In those days, we were almost 100% retail, in terms of client base and 95% of our business was in the UK. Today, that's altered fundamentally. We now trade from eight offices globally, and 90% of our business is outside of the UK. So we're very much a global business, and there's been lots of changes over those 27 years 

 

Firstly, what is your strongest geography? Where is your emphasis, your focus? 

 

Mark Mason 

Geography-wise, there's a broad spread. The Middle East is our largest office in terms of people. We have Over 150 people in the Middle East; Zebra globally, is just under 250 people. After that it is North America, where we have offices in New York, Phoenix, Toronto, Mexico City. In the Middle East we have an office in Dubai and an office in Riyadh, and that's a fully set up office in Riyadh employing male and female Saudi nationals. Here in the UK, we've got this office in Covent Garden. We've just relocated here, and then we have a small representation in Hong Kong. 

 

And across those 27 years, what have you noticed in terms of the key trends in retail generally, but in retail design more specifically? 

 

Mark Mason 

In retail in general, 27 years ago, I think we doubted whether people would ever buy things on the internet. 

 

Really? 

 

Mark Mason 

Yes, you know, we all assumed that people would want to touch and feel objects before they purchased them, not purchase it from a click, via an image on the screen. There was no Instagram. There was no TikTok, there was no Facebook, there was no social media, there were no influencers. Whereas today they influence absolutely what people purchase and the turnaround of people's traditional brand loyalty has moved into a very, very quick, instant timeline where people are looking for things instantly and very quickly. The speed to market has been reduced considerably. 

 

And in terms of the shop, obviously, it used to be a place where you went and touched and felt things, and now is it too pat to say it's more experiential? I mean, how has it changed in the last five years, say? 

 

Mark Mason 

In terms of the store, if you think 27 years ago, there was a number of department stores. Then there were middle market stores, young fashion, the likes of Top Shop. It was an experience to go to a Top Shop. You would go to Top Shop, or Top Man Oxford Circus as a treat on the weekend. it was an experience. That was the shopping experience. And it no longer exists. It is now an IKEA store. So that type of retail has moved online so quick, but it's also much smaller, independent, brand-focused, client and customer-focused, pop-up retail; the breadth of retail has expanded. The type of retail has expanded over those years. One of the nice things over the past few years since COVID; I think in the depths of COVID, we most probably thought there would be no more physical retail. 

 

Did you think that? 

 

Mark Mason 

For a period of time in the middle of COVID, of course. There was definitely going to be no more physical retail. I think we all thought there was going to be no more physical retail. We learned to do things online. You know, Teams and Zoom meetings. We learned to run businesses online. We learned to design and to do things online. We learned to do projects online. So retail was moving towards an online presence. I think we did doubt that there would be the amount of physical retail, but then all of a sudden, it's come back, and it's almost come back, thankfully and pleasantly, in a way that...People remember that it's nice to experience things before you purchase. It's nice to look at the options. It's nice to be in a social environment. People enjoy being with other people. Retail is a transactional activity, but it's also a social activity. 

 

So, how's that affected your designs, and what sort of clients are you talking about here? 

 

Mark Mason 

The days of copy-pasting, 100, 150 retail units is over. That I can't see coming back, because if you're going out for an experience and for a pleasant environment, you want something different. So, the design is more individual. We could do 150 of a certain brand, but every one might be a little bit different, especially in hospitality. And I think from hospitality relates back to retail. So, people do things differently. The density of product on the sales floor is not there, which means there's more space for social areas. There's more space for interactions, more space for pop-up activity, new product launches, things that will change the retail environment so that it's not [just] set up a few times a year, and that's how it is. Stores are going to evolve and change. That's what we've noticed. 

 

When it comes to high streets, and particularly when you think of Oxford Street and its plans for pedestrianisation, for example, what do you see is the future of the High Street? Is it more  of that? i.e. being more of a zone for people meeting? 

 

Mark Mason 

It's got to be. The pedestrianisation of Oxford Street's been spoken about so many years. 

 

Are you in favour? 

 

Mark Mason 

100% in favour! 

 

Why? 

 

Mark Mason 

Because it creates that retail destination. It creates an environment that people can enjoy. There's then a mix of hospitality and retail. Currently, you have to go off the street down into the side streets... 

 

Yeah, St, Christopher's Place, etc 

 

Mark Mason 

Yes, St Christopher's is a classic; it's a nice environment. But why not spill that out onto the main Oxford Street? Then you've got destination. You've got a very nice destination and a great walking street. You know, the work that the Crown Estates have done on Regent Street has been superb over the last 20, 30 years. We're in Covent Garden currently; look at Covent Garden Piazza - even out here at Seven Dials it is a beautiful area, nice environment, almost totally pedestrianised. Not 100%, which is fine - Long Acre and the heart of Covent Garden isn't totally pedestrianised; it’s just a very nice environment. 

 

And the common thread there is calming environments in terms of cars, right? 

 

Mark Mason 

I think you've also got to allow street performers, live music, as well as the hospitality - you get the full environment. 

 

But the motor car is anathema to that, isn't it, essentially? 

 

Mark Mason 

It is, but you've got to allow people to be able to get into the city.  I'm a supporter of pedestrianisation, but I'm not necessarily a supporter of not allowing people to drive into the city. I think there's a balance to be had. There are things that you can purchase that you can't necessarily get home on the bus or on the underground. 

 

And so is it right to assume that your work abroad is more geared towards malls that are accessible by cars, etc? 

 

Mark Mason 

That depends on the market. So Middle East - it's what, 16 degrees here, and is currently 42 degrees in the Middle East; the shopping mall is the equivalent to the High Street. And there's a constant investment in the shopping mall. The shopping mall hasn't died in the Middle East. 

 

But it has in the UK, pretty much, would you say? 

 

Mark Mason 

There just hasn't been the investment. We work with Emaar in Dubai Mall. The mall opened in 2009; they've already refurbished three key areas of it. The shopping malls here haven't been invested in for a long time. So, the Dubai mall is a superb retail experience. It's a destination. It's too big a destination for one day; you can, you can go back to different sectors, different zones of it. That hasn't been replicated in this market, nor is it being replicated in the US, where the shopping mall is very much a secondary place, and it's almost outdoor. It's moved from a COVID environment, certainly across the southern parts of the states to an outdoor mall, rather than the completely enclosed mall that it needs to be in the Middle East. 

 

Final question because we're sort of up to time.  What trends do you see in the next decade, or even doubling your time span 27 years in the UK, in terms of retail, and particularly London because we're a London organisation. Do you see the high street returning in popularity given your vision there of lots of different uses and perhaps even more residential on the high street? What do you see in your crystal ball? 

 

Mark Mason 

I would hope that that can continue. I would hope that there can be key focus zones at different scales. So: neighbourhood - London is a collection of villages. Each one has its own neighbourhood that has a vibrancy that is then complemented at a higher level by the Oxford Streets, the Regent Streets, the Covent Gardens, Borough Market, Kings Cross, those sorts of zones. The luxury sector, you know, the Knightsbridge, - Harrods and Selfridges are global destinations... 

 

But the tier below, the Debenhamses, died, didn't they? 

 

Mark Mason 

The middle market died. It didn't invest; there was no differentiation. They didn't respond to the competition below or the competition above. 

 

So, what should they have done? 

 

Mark Mason 

Created a superb environment that people wanted to be in with product that people wanted to buy. That happened in in Selfridges. And it happened at the street level, athleisure, the trends and all of that. It didn't happen in the middle. There wasn't the investment, which meant that it didn't survive. Unfortunate, but that's the way where things are. 

 

And as a subsidiary last question, did you have a view about the M&S saga on Oxford Street? And do you have a view about where M&S goes next? Because it clearly is looking into the future? 

 

Mark Mason 

M&S has reinvented itself and has come back; classic British brand. The food offers always been very strong. It's good that they reinvented the fashion offer. I would question whether that building was really a notable building to save, yeah. You're in one of the key retail destinations in the world; was that a world class building, we needed to save? Versus a British brand that could have had a super flagship store built by now, if that had been on the planning and it’s been open for years. Is it as good as Selfridges next door? No. The building is not as good as Selfridges. So, I'm a supporter of the redevelopment of that building. Yeah, definitely, because I don't think it was world class building 

 

Very last question, why are you called Zebra or [phonetically] 'zeebra'? Are you called 'Zeebra' in America? 

 

Mark Mason 

The Zebra/ 'zeebra' was never a problem until we went to America. (laughs) The business originally was called RGH Management, which doesn't quite roll off the tongue. It was the initials of the three founders, June Robson, Richard Gibbs and Ian Harper, and we had a non-Executive Director, Stephen Sharp, Marks and Spencers. And Stephen convinced us that our original name wasn't correct. He did a brilliant presentation in the days before PowerPoint and everything, the traditional paper flip chart presentation. We were all around a very long table, and he went through the attributes of the business. I can't remember them all. So, we're all very black and white. 

 

Ah. I'm getting a picture now… 

 

Mark Mason 

We were a herd of like-minded people, but individuals, The stripes on every zebra are different; all these attributes of the zebra. And he went through every single one, and his final slide was, and this is what you are going to call yourselves, and not one of us questioned this. We were all there for his presentation. 26 years later we are still Zebra - or 'zeebra' in the US. 

 

Magic. Thank you very much for that. That was fascinating. Thank you. 

 

Mark Mason 

Okay, good. Thanks.