Hi Matt. How are you doing? 

 

I'm really good, thank you, and it's great to talk to you. Always been a massive fan of the NLA. It's a real privilege to do this! 

 

Lovely! You've been in interiors, and particularly in offices, for a long time, with spells at places like Gensler, Arney Fender Katsalidis, and most recently BDG, where you were managing director. And now you've joined Hawkins\Brown – I think you've been there for about two months. How did this all come about? And what has your experience of the new practice been like so far? 

 

Well, it came about probably a little bit unexpectedly. I was approached by a recruitment agent. I'd left BDG at that point, and I was having a little bit of a break in the middle, after the endgame at BDG for me, which was exciting. But it was a well-deserved bit of breathing space. I was talking to a number of different companies. It was probably just trying to find out who might need someone like me. I'm not exactly young anymore, but I feel like I've got a lot to offer a business. So, it was interesting talking to different companies, and we had some good conversations moving along, and suddenly I got a notification that Hawkins\Brown might be looking for someone to lead their interiors team. They have been growing with workload and various different types, and so they were also very interested in the opportunity to widen their workplace capability, to actually commit to fit-outs and the fit-out market, something that they had been doing, but had never really gone for it as a business sector. They've been doing it for lots of different clients, lots of different town councils, some end users, quite a wide variety, actually, of projects, but never really tried to actually attack the fit-out market. I bring that with me, and the knowledge of 30 years of working in the workplace fit-out market. But also my network, I guess, is quite important as well. 

I've done a lot of different types of roles. I've worked as a design director for many years of my career, as a client director, and then, most recently, as a managing director. So, I feel like I can work up and down the ladder quite happily, doing different roles within the business. It's been great to join them and it’s a very exciting team – really, really, talented. So many people from different high-profile practices have joined Hawkins\Brown over the last 10 years. Morag Morrison, who's been leading the team, has really built that team well, and they can switch gears from doing workplace to doing residential, to doing a life sciences campus, to then doing higher education. You know, they're a really widely skilled, diverse design team. 

 

In the press release that announced you're coming on board, you were quoted as saying, 'I'm excited to be joining Hawkins\Brown at a time when the UK's commercial fit-out market is undergoing dynamic transformation, driven by evolving workplace expectations, sustainability imperatives and accelerating technological innovation.' Now, we're five years on from the start of COVID, essentially, aren't we? What are the key drivers in shaping the modern office as far as you've perceived them change over the last decade? Or what sort of time period would you like to choose? 

 

Why don't we just look at now, in the last five years, because I think that the word ‘pandemic’, and ‘post-pandemic workplace’ has been really, really not overly used, because I think that it is relevant. But in my opinion, we're now moving into a definite new era of work. I think that with the pandemic, what that those two particular years - 2019, and 2020 - did was that they were the biggest experiments, as far as I saw, in agile and remote-working globally. It was a global experiment that was forced, and everyone had to work and adapt to it, really quickly. And actually, it was a huge success. That allows global trust to build about people working remotely – that they still could do it. The work was still happening, and it sort of made technology move even faster. It was already accelerating anyway at a pace, but it again adapted to deal with this condition. So, I think societal change on the approach to office work really changed in that time. In the five years since when the pandemic first hit, we've now had two years of stability. So almost everything has been pretty consistent in most things; pretty much the approach to the office, the transport systems and how people are coming into cities, which days are busy and which days aren't. We've still got the problem of Fridays, in many ways. Still got dead cities on Fridays, it seems to be just, you know, accepted by society that people will work from home if they can on Fridays or when it's convenient... 

 

…Can I interrupt there? Is that a problem? 

 

I think it is for some businesses. People have accepted it, and I think people need it – this is the flexibility that comes with agile working. In many ways, people work really hard through the first four days, and they use Friday as a sort of admin day at home and for getting through all of the catch up. A lot of companies don't have any physical meetings inside their businesses on Fridays. So, there is something that's probably a little bit of give-and-take that's happened here, and I think that's something that's probably been accepted. I'm in work, generally, most days, every day, because I feel like I just want to be around people, and a lot of my work involves visiting, networking and being with other people, besides just being inside the business all day. But I do think it is something that's happened, and it's almost accepted now. There are things that are important as far as a workplace is concerned, and these are also lessons that have happened in the last five years and have settled in around two years. 

One is the rise of social capital. Never has it been as important to be around people and to have spaces that can support that, can host and really just bring people together. I've seen so many workplaces that have such large areas of their floorplates and of the overall space of a take-up devoted now to social capital, and not necessarily working at desks. I think psychological comfort has played its part; people having the power to adjust how they want to work, where they want to work, lighting, cooling. All the things that you can control quite easily at home, bringing that psychological comfort to work to make it not really too much of a fight when you're making the decision: should I go to the office, or not? And then just spaces that can adapt and evolve. I think that this is really important. 

Business is still changing. There has been a big settling period. But businesses themselves change, and I think that the awareness is of: ‘okay, we might have to suddenly create a new part of the business here; it's not all going to stay the same, we need to run the business in some ways, not like an experiment, but as something that is nimble enough to change when it's needed. 

A lot of the most successful projects I've worked on in the last three years have really had a lot of change and flexibility built into them, which has been great. And I think it's actually very exciting to have things that can flex around and adapt to different types of teams, different types of users, spaces, that can do so many different things. 

We did one project while I was at BDG, which we called the Swiss Army Knife project. It was really compact from what they had previously. They almost took up a quarter of the space-take of what they came from, but it did everything in that space. It was almost an equal amount of social space to the amount of workstation space. It felt like it was very well utilised, busy all day. And I think that these kinds of projects have become more common. Although, saying that, I have seen quite a lot of the trends that have come out of the big agencies over probably the last 18 months, and specifically the last six months, that have said, actually, leases seem to be taking more now. So, people are not reducing as they sign new leases; they're actually taking more. That's also very interesting, very encouraging for the world of commercial offices, that people are still very much committed. 

 

Are you still seeing, then, that there is an ongoing battle for the best minds and skills, i.e., the best staff, that's being fought through design and facilities? 

 

I think that the workplace does play a really important part in attracting talent, and I've always thought that. Going back probably at least 20 years, where I've been much more involved in the design centrally on projects, I've seen how important it is. It depends what sector you're in, but I'd say this is become much more widespread now. So, for professional services, financial services, certainly tech, media, big brands – having a good workplace is a really important part of convincing someone that they're making the right decision. It shows that company has an awful lot of commitment to their employees and making everyone's day at work exciting, brand-led, possibly, all of the values that you might expect, covering all the other important bases now that are making a difference. So, you know, wellbeing, facilities… coffee! I know it sounds crazy, but coffee is such a big thing in the world of work these days. Someone told me the other day that the three things in facilities departments that mostly get complained about now are number one: coffee; number two: air-conditioning and then number three: toilets. It's interesting how coffee seems to be such an important part! But not only is it often the social heart of the building where the best coffee is served and everyone meets there and has their meetings there, but I also think it's one of many things that are playing a part in the whole conversation. 

 

...which is an idea as old as time, or at least the 17th century, isn't it? Going right back to the foundations of the City of London, with all the coffee houses, and so on. 

 

Absolutely, and I think it's really important. It's surprising how many workplaces now actually employ a barista. You know, inside, actually, that's a member of staff now, someone who makes great coffee.  

 

Director of Caffeine! 

 

I've been to quite a lot of the recent successful offices that have been in both the BCO Awards and also just when you see a good project finish and you get a chance to tour around it; there is often that that commitment is made and the expense that's committed by an employer, because they realise that this is something that makes a difference. So, encouraging. But I do think wellbeing is very important. It has been for quite a while. The latest technology is also very important; technology is just advancing at such a pace at the moment. AI is playing its part in that, and it's interesting – AI is something that we have used, and we are using it and to different measures, but I think that we're only just really starting to touch what its real capability is going to be. It's very impressive, potentially, what it's going to be able to do, even for the design and architecture world. You think it's probably more of a sort of professional services type, where money's going be saved on efficiency, on process, but I do think there are areas that we're finding now where it's really fascinating what you can do with it, and how intelligent it is as a platform in different areas. 

 

David Taylor 

While we’re on the broad subject of work, and the projects that you’re involved with, I wanted to ask you very briefly about the news that you’ve been appointed to work on the pedestrianisation of Oxford Street. What’s your reaction? 

 

Matt Jackson 

Yes. I can’t say too much, but we are delighted to be working on the Re-imagining Oxford Street project; it really is such a fantastic opportunity to collaborate with a brilliant team to play our part in the story of one of the most iconic streets in the world. 

 

Great. We're just coming up to time, so the final question is back on the subject of your new workplace – did the actual office that Hawkins\Brown have play any part in luring you, or was it just a nice surprise for you? 

 

When I was meeting with a few people, a number of people in this process, it was great to meet different practices. I've always been a big fan – I feel strongly that every single business needs the respect, and I've always felt very strongly that you should respect your competitors. Everyone can have a great day; everyone can do a great project. But when I walked into Hawkins\Brown, I just felt straight away, my gut told me this is a lot of happy people. You can see a lot of energy. It reminded me of some of the other great places I've worked in the past. And as soon as I started meeting with the leadership, I just felt at home immediately, and I thought: what a great place – this is a real, people-focused business. I was lucky, because Hawkins\Brown is a business that I've admired for 30 years. I always thought they do great work, and I've always admired the way that Russell [Brown] and Roger [Hawkins] have stuck to their guns in terms of the principles of the business. Really strong retrofit, refurbishment, real strong people values, designing for people. So, I've always thought that they're a great business. And I just really feel lucky actually arriving here, because they’ve been very welcoming, and it really is the real deal once you get inside here. 

 

Well, that just shows the power of good office design, doesn't it - that it even affected you coming to the practice. 

 

It's a great piece of design, as well. They've done a fantastic conversion from when it was Vitra's headquarters; it’s suddenly turned into a really vibrant workplace. The way it's all open and you hear everything. The one thing I'm surprised that you don't hear, though, is Russell's music, because he's a huge music fan, and I was expecting there to be a sort of sound system on in the place! But actually I think you don’t really need that, because there's so many people now. It's just feels very, very bustling, all day. 

 

So, what's the coffee like? 

 

(laughs) Superb, actually! Well invested-in! 

 

Magic. Thanks, Matt, that's really great. 

 

Okay, thanks David. Have a great day!