Hello, Nick. How are you?

 

Good to meet you, David, 

 

To this very day, you are exactly one year into your role as chief executive of Ordnance Survey. What would you say you've learned about the company and its perception out there? Do people still connote you with fold-up maps they use while walking the Lake District, for example?

 

Sure. Well clearly, I was familiar with Ordnance Survey before I took the role. I think it's fair to say I've always had a love for the brand and for the organization, which, of course, you know, has been built up from spending many a wet walk through the Peak District or through the Lake District as a child. And although, clearly, that is a connection that resonates with lots of people up and down the country, I guess the amazing thing when you come inside the building is you realize the breadth and the depth you know, the scale, the reach of the OS data that underpins that capability. And really, in a modern, 21st-century Ordnance Survey, that's as relevant today, as it ever has been, even from our founding in 1791. It's striking, then, the critical role that OS data plays in the delivery of many aspects of both public sector as well as, private life. And in all of that, in lots of ways, it's doing exactly what the humble paper map has always done, which is provide great insight. A paper map is a thing that we could use to plan a walk with the dogs to a pub to have half a pint of shandy. In the same way that someone can decide where the best place is for a housing developer, where is the best place to bring green energy on shore from, from offshore wind. All of that is all about insight. And actually, I suppose the biggest learning for me, over the past 12 months about the organization's capability, is how that geospatial understanding, that geospatial data, underpins so many aspects now, of the things we just take for granted in a modern Britain.

 

Are perceptions of the firm an issue for you?  Do you spend quite a lot of time talking to people like, well, the public, and people like me and the public via me, about how we are misunderstanding what you guys do? 

 

I don't think it's a misunderstanding, because the thing that draw us to this building in the first place, whether that's myself or any one of the 1400 people who work here, is probably the paper maps that we are very familiar with. That's not a problem in perception, because really, what those maps fundamentally embody is a sense of trust. You know, people trust us. Walk up Hellvellyn or a coastal path; they trust us that that path is true and accurate. And I think that sense of trust of that enduring capability, that foundational nature to what we do, is essential to the paper maps as it is to what we do for the nation, much more broadly. So, I don't think it's a problem at all. I think it's actually a great strength of our organization and our service.

 

But you're a tech firm, essentially, aren't you? Could you briefly explain how the maps are created and also updated? Why do they need to be updated so often?

 

Yes, your observation is fair and accurate. We've always been a tech firm, you know, from 1791, when we were specifying the theodolite that we needed to be built, to our adoption of machine learning today. I mean, clearly, everything has changed in the way that we do that, but some things do stay the same. So today, whereas before, we had an army of people, measuring angles and distances, and from that, developing trig lines and then building up local details of what assets were where and what their attribution was, now today, we do that through a much broader variety of technologies. The way they're done today is we use everything from Earth observation satellite imagery through to aerial imagery, through to boots-on-the-ground surveyors. We've still got 230 surveyors who are out in weather like we've both got today, come rain or shine, providing that validation. And that comes back to that point I made to your first question, which is, it's about that trust. In lots of ways, what they're doing there is quality-assuring; the measurements that we're making in a wide variety of ways of doing that. Now, that all leads to about 20,000 changes a day to the National Geographic Database. When you think back to 1791, when it took us 10 years to produce our first sheet, the idea that there are 20,000 updates going on to the database for the half a billion data features that we hold in that data store, you can see that the breadth and the size of the complexity has really, materially changed. And that's really why we are still as relevant a tech organization today as we were back then. 

 

Just as an aside, what was that first sheet? That was a first map, was it? Of which area?

 

Kent. Originally, the founding of the organization was really a response to the threat of Napoleonic invasion… 

 

Wow!

 

So, the founder managed to convince the government to set aside, I don't know many pounds, shillings and old pence, to provide a survey of the south of England. Because while our navies were all abroad, potentially protecting the colonies and the Commonwealth, there was a fear that Napoleon would pop across the Channel and take bits of Kent and Sussex, and all the way through to Hampshire. So that's how they justified the survey. And in lots of ways, it was actually a mixed survey of both land as well as charting the sea. So, we don't look after sea surveys; that's done by the UK Hydrographic Office and a sister organization to ourselves. That's really what led to those first sheets. But it took them 10 years to survey it and to then plot it and to print it. Then it took a basically another 100 years, I want to say, to do a map of the whole of GB. By the time they finished it 100 years later, in the expansion and during that Victorian time, it all needed doing again. And you know, that cadence and that task of sort of painting the Forth Road bridge, only for mapping, is something we still do today. Our work is never done, because there's something changing in our landscape or in our built environment on a second-by-second basis. What the country needs from us is to make sure that we stay up to date and current with that, and actually up to date and current, of course, with the uses, the increasing and different uses of that capability, of that technology. So, although lots of the principles have stayed the same, and the ethos has stayed the same, the way that we do it has materially changed over that time. 

 

Right, here's an idiot question from me. When I'm looking at my Maps or Waze or whatever on my phone, does that data come from you guys?

 

Depending on the app that you're using, probably. So, we've been at this for quite a long time. We are just the custodians of the enduring map of Great Britain. So those common apps that you use on a daily basis, like Apple Maps or Google Maps, or even some of the online ones like the maps inside MSN back in the day are all underpinned by data that in some way, shape or form, has been captured and is being published by Ordnance Survey. But that's also true for local planning maps. If you want to do an extension on your house, you need a map. It's OS data that underpins that. If you are a developer and you want to go and build six new houses on that brownfield site, it's OS maps data that underpins that. We talk inside the business that the average UK citizen touches OS data 40 times a day.

 

Wow! 

 

Every citizen, 40 times a day. And that's what's so wonderful about OS. We're the sort of invisible fabric upon which the country relies – be that the way we deliver healthcare, the way we deliver education, the way we deliver electricity, the way we deal with sewage. You know, all of that is underpinned by a map somewhere. And I think that just underlines how important Ordnance Survey is today to the functioning of 21st-century Britain.

 

How is that monetized? These users of your data pay you a fee, yearly?

 

There's a couple of ways that it's paid for. We have a central all-you-can-eat deal with government. That's an agreement called the PSGA, the Public Sector Geospatial Agreement. And so, if you're a borough, if you're a parish council, you can sign up for that and then get free access to your local maps. There are 6500 signatories to the PSGA, from large users like Defra and national highways all the way through to my local parish council. So that's one way. As part of that, we also provide a whole bunch of data, through the open governmental license, the OGL, and that's open data and available. That's really trying to facilitate anybody who's got an interest in maps, and whether they can build little businesses off it, or even just better enjoy their community; then that's available to them. Then we also have a commercial sector that we sell to commercial organizations, because it's right that if a commercial organization is getting benefit from Ordnance Survey maps, then we should be compensated. And then, of course, we have a big consumer business, which you've already pointed to in the paper maps, but also through our own OS maps application as well. So, you know, in all of those ways, people get access to our data. Then there are some other things that we do in the market more broadly to try to encourage a more geospatial Britain. We really believe that geospatial understanding is a big unlock of value across both public and private life. So we have things like the Geovation incubator based up in Clerkenwell, so incubator companies come on our program for six months or 12 months. We also do that for a prop tech program that we do in combination with Land Registry. So, our role as an organization is to create better outcomes for the country, be those economic, be those social, or even actually just the delivery of public service more broadly.

 

Homing in on our particular sector, i.e. land and property, how does your data help in that regard, and also in terms of key topics currently, like house building, for example?

 

It's worth saying that clearly Ordnance Survey underpins Land Registry, and clearly Land Registry underpins every transaction of property, every day. That's the position of strength that we start from. You need orderly data in order to have an orderly property market, full stop. And then actually, of course, you come to the important point about, and especially underlined by the new government of the need for a higher degree of house building than we've perhaps done in the past. We genuinely believe that geospatial data has got a very strong role to play here. Because really the sort of data that we that we have available is land use - so: what's the land used for today? Is it a brownfield site? Is it Green Belt? Is it a greenfield site? It also covers things like the services that are available in one particular area. It covers the electricity network as well, in some aspects. And of course, when you're trying to factor in, "can I build here?", or "what sort of housing could this plot or region sustain?", you've got to solve all of those, but it isn’t a case of just coming up with one answer. You've got to be able to see what happens if we loosen back that characteristic, or we strengthen that one, or if we were to build a dual carriageway around the area, does that then free that up? Or equally, what does it mean for water flows? So: what would it mean for both natural water sources, and also no man-made generation water? So even then, both the planning and the interventions that you have to undertake as a developer can all be accommodated, or they're all informed by that very detailed sense of geography. So, for us, we really feel that there's a very central role to play, and we're not alone in that, because we've got a whole bunch of partners who act in that. It's not just in the property building or in the property selling and buying markets; it's also in financial services. We've got a number of partners who are active being able to understand more about properties. Because if you're going to lend money against a property, or you are going to insure a property, you had better understand something about what its risk actually is. So, there's a visible role for Ordnance Survey to play in almost all aspects of the functioning of property, be that new, be that existing, or be that even change of use. 

 

Now, before I ask you my final question, which is about what's next for Ordnance Survey, I did note from your LinkedIn profile that you were chair of a company called Soar Running as a part-time role, for four years. It is as I understand it a dynamic running apparel business.  In my mind's eye, I had you at the top of a mountain running in the gear, using map data as a sort of neat conflation of those two roles. Am I wide of the mark? You look like a runner! 

 

(laughs) No, you’re bang on! I would say that the folk at Soar are massive fans of Ordnance Survey. Actually, one of the non-exec directors there announced my departure as that I've got the best job in the world, because he would have quite liked that role. Am I on top of mountains? No, my children will tell you, I'm the biggest moaner when it comes to running up a hill!  ...So, I tend to like running on the flat. That connection with the outdoors, I think, is something that connects not just me, but almost everybody in this building. There's something that connects us to the outdoor environment. And I don't just mean footpaths; I mean the built environment too. Then when we come inside the building, we actually have a higher degree of bonding because of that. There are some really very fast runners in this organization. We always do quite well in the Civil Service annual 10k, and there are also some ultra runners and triathletes here as well. All of that, of course, is informed by those leisure maps where we started this conversation. It's something that we're fiercely proud of. I think it's completely okay to conflate those things! 

 

(laughs) So it's a sort of Strava underpinning of data and statistics, etc., between those two areas.

 

And it's worth saying, that I think OS Maps is second only to Strava in the UK on being the most used outdoor app. You could argue, actually, our user base, of course, is slightly different from those on Strava. And I don't use Strava - I'm much more a Garmin and OS maps man.

 

Fair enough. So: final question, what is next for Ordnance Survey?

 

Well, in lots of ways, it's more of the same, and then some more of the new. We take that responsibility to keep the National Geographic database up to date and current as a very important public task. It comes down to that point, about trust. You know, that's an enduring capability that underpinning so much of modern life. We have to keep doing that. Long may that continue. But of course, how we do that has to be to continue to innovate. One of the techniques that we bring to is increasing degrees of accuracy or increasing degrees of currency to that - and that really points to the direction of travel about how we're changing to the modern demands that are being placed on our organization. And that does relate to the adoption of new technologies like machine learning, and Earth observation imagery, but also relates to broadening the insights that you can draw from our data. One thing we talk about inside the business is that the data is absolutely essential, but we're only capturing it for a reason, and that reason is to provide insight. Insight to “where could I extend that house?” Where can I build that town? Where do I go for service A, B or C? We answer those ‘where’ questions. The value is in the insight. But that insight has to be underpinned by the intrinsic data that we capture. And I think that's the thing we must not lose focus on here; that fundamentally, we have to provide the data to provide insight. So, where we can facilitate more insights - and that might mean making more software tools available - then we should absolutely play in that space. Because ultimately, what we're trying to do is create better outcomes for a better Britain, and that comes from not just capturing the data and leaving it in a box but liberating the value in that data by putting it in more people's hands. That's a modern Ordnance Survey. 

 

Well, congratulations on your first-year anniversary, or first birthday, at OS, and good luck on the next run as well!

 

Yes. Well, thanks very much for your questions and your ongoing support of the organization. See you in a year's time!

 

Definitely. See you soon. 

 

Take care.