So, James, congratulations on, and thank you from NLA for, being chair of the expert panel on high streets for the last three years. What would you say are the three main takeaways you've got from that period? What's at the forefront of your mind on high streets?

 

I think there are three things, but I'd say that the main theme that has come out is about partnerships. And I guess sub-themes of that, what does that mean? The three things that make a good high street, I guess, or the things that have come out of this are: plan for the future. So high streets are the lifeblood of any town or village. And they underpin a number of places, whether it's internal London or external; internal borough or outer borough. And then another one is: think beyond boundaries, which is: we can't just focus on each specific site. I think that's been the case for a number of years, which is mixed use developments, let's say, focus on their own development. 

And I think there needs to be a more strategic approach, a more joined up approach. And then also, there have been a number of high street initiatives, which aim to bring in local entrepreneurs, and the urban landscape should aim to provide a place for this to happen. And we're seeing that more and more. I guess the third thing which I started with is work in partnership. What I mean by that, and what we mean as the panel, which has really come through, it seems to be the best opportunity for a high street is a partnership between borough and developer, and in conversations between community, developer and borough, working in harmony. So, I think those are the three key ones. I mean, there's obviously sub-bits within that. But that's the general theme that has come through. it's how do you challenge fragmented ownership, and how do you take a holistic view on a high street that has hundreds of years of different uses and different ownership?

 

I suppose that brings me on to a point about Marylebone High Street, for example, which obviously has had the Crown Estate governing its makeup. Is that one of the models for the high street, in that sense, in the sort of ownership and curation of the High Street point of view?

 

Yeah, I think definitely. I think if you have a large landowner and they're patient, then you can have a more strategic 10-to-15-year vision, perhaps, as opposed to a four or five year. Because if you think about them in just silos, on a high street, it is quite hard to get that holistic approach. And in fairness, local authorities now have got high streets initiatives, they're really coming forward with stewardship. You have local town centre managers now, which are helping curate spaces, and there's no doubt that the space is just reduced, it is just not enough. We don't need as much of this retail space anymore. But yes, Crown Estate, Grosvenor, you know, those guys. A really good example, and I don't know if we'll come on to this later, is Brent Cross with Argent.

They've got this strategic partnership at Brent Cross, and we had Ciara (Whelehan of Brent Council) on the panel and we talked about this quite a lot. They are a patient developer, you know, they can look holistically across what are the right uses in the right places. And that was a big question and theme throughout this year. What are the right uses in the right places. It's that kind of mixture of uses, I think, that complement each other. And someone having that vision, and a patient developer working in partnership, which is very difficult to do on existing urban landscapes. But you're absolutely right. I think the larger landowners that have a more holistic approach definitely can have more control. The New West End company are really good at helping that as well. 

 

I was going ask about the BIDs. Presumably, the BIDs are a force for good in this in this realm, too, are they?

 

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Yeah. I mean, we've had very good conversations and good topics and questions on BIDs, and certainly Fleet Street Quarter, and the EC BID as well in the City of London and the Culture Mile Initiative and New West End company. We met the Northbank bid on a project yesterday actually, talking about a scheme that we have in Westminster, near The Strand. And there's actually quite a considerable issue with social disorder on certain areas in and around Westminster and anti-social behaviour. And I think there's a real drive there to try and democratize a lot of the ground floor spaces. And they're getting a lot more involved now, strategically - how can we activate ground floor frontages, and this all ties into the high street, really. It's how do we help these dead spaces, if you like, become quite live and active? And that's through art, good public realm. So, the BIDs I've noticed over the last two years are becoming a lot more at the forefront of helping shape policy in certain areas.

 

To what degree is there a difference between inner and outer London? In my mind's eye, I'm imagining that outer London has more problems with traffic and management of cars, essentially. And in inner London, it's less of a case. Is that Is that a fair characterization? And is that the marked difference?

 

Yes, I would say there's obviously the 15 Minute City that has captured, I think, initially was meant as a force for good in lots of ways. But I know it's been politicized recently, for various reasons. And I think if you contextualize that question...we started the panel, pre-COVID, or just as the pandemic hit. So, one of the first questions was what are the opportunities, and what are the negatives? And it was quite a tricky question for the panel, really. But actually, as we've come through three years later, what we've seen is hybrid working looks like it's here to stay, to a certain degree. More and more people are coming back into the CAZ, but it's two or three days, let's say. There seems to be a rhythm of that, and the nature of working settling down a bit. But one thing a lot of the panellists have come to, and we've discussed as a team is that on the outer boroughs, people have experienced their local again, if you like. And they've got to know the High Street. There are some really good ideas about reimagining post-war, old Marks and Spencer’s or C&As. You know, those kinds of old stores that have been cycled. People are working more locally and looking to work maybe not in their house, because I think people have got a little bit tired of that, perhaps. So there seems to be this rise in these spaces...

 

…Third spaces, I think they're called, aren't they?

 

Yeah, exactly right. Ealing are doing a really good job of that. Connor McDonagh on our panel, has been on for three years, actually, and we've got some really good examples of the work that they're doing in Ealing. So yeah, but going back to your question about cars; yes, I think there's a transport issue. And I guess that links to retail parks and things like that as well.

 

So, looking forward, what do you perceive as the main things to emerge in this arena over the next two to three years, say? What are we likely to see if anything in terms of changes? 

 

Well, I think, everyone realizes that retail has reduced. It’s arbitrary but let's say it's reduced by 30%, 40% requirement. There is actually a huge amount of work being done out there by the NLA obviously and the expert panel, and the New London Agenda paper that we're producing should help with that. I think entrepreneurs are coming more forward now. I think one of the big questions, and I still think this is a challenge, and I think we can overcome this, I think the high street has a really positive future. Business rates is a barrier. And also, people having access or understanding where these units are. So, we've had some really good examples from the panel; one in Nunhead, another and these are outer boroughs where the GLA had these initiatives of giving half- or free rent for six months to entrepreneurs, and just seeing how that works in a series of shops. And actually, there are people out there looking to start businesses.

I think, if they know where these businesses are, they have access to an element of reduced business rates…actually, the L&G have a development in Poole in Dorset. They bought the old shopping centre, there's a high street there that was pretty dark, pretty dingey, and it was featured in The Times recently as being one of the most successful little high streets because it's got a fishmonger there now, it's got all these little independent shops. And I think there's all these little tales and stories of these people out there that want to drive these. And actually, how nice is that? Going to your local high street and meeting people that have set up their own business? You know, actually, that's something if we can keep this, the NLA do a really good job at this, high streets initiative, the BIDs, you know, if these all coordinate and create this landscape, and policy helps this, then actually, there could be a real place for the high street, and a good mix of uses, like residential. So, for example, you've got all these vacant shops on the high street.

We've got a real issue at the NHS with A&E waiting times. Why don't they take one of these stores as outsourcing for particular tests? Or get some machines in there or something for that? So, it's how do you reimagine the uses of these kind of places? And actually high streets, wherever you live, they are generally quite accessible. That's generally the good thing about high streets, is that they're accessible historically.

 

So lastly, international and maybe UK exemplars too; have you looked anywhere? It seems to me the concept of the High Street feels kind of British to me, and not, European. Have you looked elsewhere to look at examples?

 

It's a good point, because I think there is the High Street in the village, if you like, but also the square. So, it's like the historical square, is almost the same as the High Street and a lot of the places that we've looked at. So, what you're looking for is an anchor. Where's the anchor for for this sense of place? We did look at some international examples, and one of those was in Rotterdam, and a really good example in the corner - a sequence of shops. Giles Semper helped bring this forward because he's been there. He is from Opportunity Kensington and basically said there is this fierce Dutch chap who bought this shop. He used to threaten to take the rest of them to court if they didn't keep their shops clean and look after their frontage and all this stuff. And we were sort of saying, you know, maybe that's the approach (laughs). But he is an example of what we're saying is like a town centre manager, if you like.

So, it goes back to that stewardship piece which is: who's looking after the high street? You know, who's leading the way in championing clean windows, good stewardship, people putting their stuff out properly, you know, good, good examples of that. So that came up quite a lot, which is quite interesting. 

 

Last question, what have you personally got out of being chair of this panel?

 

I've loved it. And I think the main thing is seeing how there are so many positive ideas and aspirations for change, and opportunities out there. I've seen that develop over pre- and post COVID. And I think in 10 years, we'll look back and say, what a great period of innovation, and what a great period, really utilizing, looking at sustainability, net Zero and what a great opportunity for entrepreneurs, although it's been a very difficult time.

 

Well, that's a very optimistic point to end on. So, thank you very much, James, for looking back at your period, and for your work.

 

Thanks, David. Yeah, nice to see you.